I know that over the years that I've been part of TMO and now TMU, there has been a LOT of discussion about reviews and review techniques. Well, it looks like it's time again...
Might be just me, but I seem to be witnessing a trend of praise with little in the way of actual critique. Basically, you put up a movie and receive nothing but love. (I see the same thing in the Reallusion forums, too).
Me, I think that's shallow. And not helpful at all. Not that I'm innocent of the charges, but hey... I ain't perfect. But at least I can admit to it.
Anyway, how about we start giving people honest feedback on movies. It used to be the norm over on TMO (once upon a time).
Are YOU up to the challenge? Dare to be honest... with EVERYONE.
--
(For some light reading of the complete opposite of a "praise-a-thon", try this link to a review of several versions of 'The Terrible Old Man', including both mine and Slarner's. Click Me - WARNING: This is NOT an example of what I would like to see! But it is the opposite of our current trend.)
Umm.. I guess we could discuss this to the end of days.. and never reach common ground!
ReplyDeleteThe trend of 'praise' has been prevalent since a long time ago - it was different once on TMO, but only in the very beginning of the site. Since then, people have gone on to either praising, or, in case they didn't like the film, saying nothing.
It's not a matter of 'daring' to me - yep, I could write detailed critiques for the movies I watch, and if I want to, I could find things I would do different in almost every film - but mark the word 'I' in this context. People make artistic choices, and I either like them or don't - and if I don't, that doesn't necessarily mean that my view of the scene is right, and theirs is wrong.
What's more, a lot of people don't care for an honest critique. Why should I waste my time and write one, when I know the film-maker doesn't want it? If someone wants a critique from me, he can contact me privately - but then again, I could only tell him what didn't work for me; I wouldn't presume to tell him how to make his film.
And as for the "critique" you linked - I'm sorry, but that is exactly the kind of feedback I don't like. It's brutal, and not constructive at all. Sentences like
"Quote: .. guys who sound like small town community theatre wonks convinced they can act but can't"
tell me a lot about the so-called reviewer - he likes to hear himself talk, and that's it. A good critique is always constructive, not designed to take all the fun of film-making for the director; and what's more, always treat others like you would like to be treated - with respect. I don't see respect there, only flashy 'my opinion is what counts' behaviour.
So thank you, but no, I don't feel dared. :)
Yeah, that link was probably a bad choice. It wasn't meant as an example of what I want. It was really the opposite of the "praise" trend is all.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you don't feel like giving people proper critiques. With your skills and experience, I feel we are missing out on what could be VERY helpful advice.
For me, various factors would decide if I leave constructive criticism. First of all, did the person ask for any? Sometimes it could be just someone expressing themselves for the heck of it - not necessarily wanting their 'baby' scrutinized or nitpicked to bits. Sometimes the egos are fragile. :)
ReplyDeleteSecondly, being new to the forums, I take in the tone of what I see happening there. Coming from a forum where constructive criticism was more openly welcomed, I looked at what the type of comments were that I saw on TMU. And yeah, the majority seem to be only highlighting the good points so when in Rome...
Lastly, when being new to a community that usually doesn't post constructive criticism, I have to ask 'who am I?'. If I'm going to buck the trend and offer my two cents, they're going to ask who am I to be offering advice (especially if I don't have any works of my own to show). But if it were the well known likes of Sisch et al - then fine. They have some clout behind them. They know what they're talking about. It makes the pill easier to swallow.
Another thing is that maybe it's not considered 'good manners' leaving negativities on someone's main page for all to see. Maybe they may feel it would color subsequent viewers opinions of the film. Perhaps what could be done is a separate thread be created in the forums where people who want constructive criticism can nominate their own film for it. That way, people would feel more comfortable leaving it, they would feel more comfortable accepting it and it's away from the mainstream film.
All good points, to which I can only add my tuppence...
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm open to criticism from ANYONE who (as far as I am concerned) has earned my respect and/or friendship and who posts this criticism in a constructive manner. Now, this might be seen as elitist, but let's examine this a little more.
As far as I'm concerned, the people I admire, respect and call "friends" in the community have earned the knowledge and critical eye to cast a comment to someone, purely because they have clawed their way up the tree from the bottom and know what the hell they're talking about. So comments from these people I listen to, purely because I know there's nothing they have to prove, no ulterior motives or stupidity, and no agenda other than the genuine desire to help out a colleague or friend with a bit of advice. And, as aT points out above, they usually don't do so unless pressed and, even then, usually via PM.
I don't have a problem with constructive criticism being public on my own stuff (provided it IS constructive); case in point, Biggsy's comment on my latest Odyssey about the length. it just so happens I agree with him but, even if I didn't, I would still bear it in mind for the future as he is one of the people I mentioned earlier whose work I like and who I respect as a person. So, I have no problem with it.
(second post as the first time the damned thing was too big!)
ReplyDeleteI do, however, understand that we're all human, we ALL have egos (some of us more than others! ;)) and I defy anyone to say that if someone who had joined the site the day before posted something negative on a movie you'd made, that you'd be happy with that. I know I wouldn't... or maybe that's just me?
As aT says, it's the nature of the site to promote "uplifting" rather than "downgrading" comments; I can only speak for myself, but there are movies I really don't like out there, for various reasons (subject matter doesn't interest me; the way it's made doesn't click with me and, yes, it has to be said, because the attitude of the film-maker sometimes really gets to me); would I say so?
No.
Why? Because what does my word count dissing something I don't like? I had the opportunity to see it was something I wouldn't like, so why sit through it just to diss the film maker? Even on films I DO watch that I sometimes think "errrr, that wasn't too good" or something, I sometimes think I'm watching the film as a critic rather than a viewer (i.e. deliberately looking for fault rather than to enjoy the piece); in the instances where I've seen something I liked that was marred somewhat by something, ordinarily I'll PM the director with a "liked the film, but there were a couple of things I personally thought you might have done differently" type mail (and I've only ever done that with newer directors who might not be aware that there are ways to get around issues; some older, more experienced ones tend to have a somewhat "what do YOU know, anyway?" attitude, as I've found to my cost!).
Ultimately, it's personal choice, really; I don't have an issue with constructive criticism (provided it IS constructive and not just bitching or face slapping borne out of petty personal issues which, let's be honest, we have seen before on the site from certain quarters...); others can't stand the thought of seeing the words "there is a problem with this film" (or some version thereof) on their comments (which I can understand).
I'll occasionally point out a technical feature I suspect the director wasn't aware of - i.e. when I mentioned to Rage that he can adjust the size of the props in iClone. Or back in the old days, the easy tip of turning off the mumbling sound in The Movies.
ReplyDeleteI think a few of us have been burned in the past with scathing PM's from defensive people who resented any implication that there work could be improved upon - it makes the inclination to help a little less strong.
If someone is new to the community I wouldn't want to scare them off with too harsh of a review.
Like it or not, many movie-makers expect people who leave more review-like comments to have exceptional movies themselves. And since I don't have exceptional movies, I don't want to paint myself into that corner.
More seasoned machinimators definitely recognize that they cannot take harsh reviews personally and survive. I find it very discouraging when people turn off the option to comment on TMU or YouTube. Why put something out there if you don't want feedback on it?
My latest movie has had an interesting life on YouTube - only 3 star average rating, and I received what I consider to be a pristine example of how to leave a comment that might have otherwise come off as harsh... eep I can't paste in this comment box and don't want to link my movie because that's not my point. Anyway!
I think we've all seen the pompous review or the review from someone who has one pet peeve and they just can't see anything beyond that. And I really really really don't ever want to fall into that category.
It's especially enjoyable once I know a filmmaker and know what artistic goals they are trying to achieve - my comments can be much more pointed about what I see as successful and what I think might be a useful adjustment.
That being said, my reviews are sincere. Not mentioning the possible improvements doesn't negate the positives I note.
However, I suppose I am a bit of a hypocrite as I absolutely love reading conflicting reviews about my movies. I actually only really feel like I did my job right if I have a camp of people saying loved it! along with a camp of people saying hated it!
ReplyDeleteReally great post Biggs!
ReplyDeleteI give it 5 Stars!
@nahton: lol!
ReplyDeleteNahton ya brat lol!!!
ReplyDeleteMy perspective is that I could work much smarter if I had someone functioning as an art director to help me see my artistic gaffes before I waste too much time on them. With me, it's not about feelings--it's about how do I achieve my goals.
ReplyDeleteHmm, viewers or critics?
ReplyDeleteI suspect Dulci hit the nail on the head – technical advice is likely to be more acceptable to most. I'm guessing that's why Biggs feels there were more "honest" reviews in the early days of TMO. Everyone was in the same boat: same experience, same tools.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the animations in iClone; even in some of the films I've really enjoyed. So: do I say that the animations are clunky, when I've no idea how to improve them? I think not. That's neither constructive nor "honest".
As for the non technical things: they're a matter of taste, so "honest" simply cannot apply. For instance, I really disliked Lizard's Coming Home, I mean a really visceral dislike (which shows it did affect me on an emotional level). But what's constructive or "honest" about me saying so? And, more importantly, why would I think anyone should care?
At the end of the day, it's up to individuals to decide how they want to comment – as a viewer or a critic.
I've been known to go into enormous, mind numbing detail on some things. But always via skype, PM, or e-mail. Because I was asked to, not because I felt entitled to.
Oh, and in case no one noticed, I really dislike the use of the word "honest" in this context. It implies that people who aren't negative (even in a constructive manner) are somehow being dishonest.
Wow, I just clicked through to the TTOM reviews! How dare she accuse me of being a guy who sounds like a small town community theatre wonk who's convinced he can act but can't!
ReplyDeleteI only aspire to someday be a small town community theatre wonk who's convinced he can act but can't!
Seriously, what a nasty, mean spirited lady. Talk about your wonks! I guess when your screename is "Ratgirl" your pretty much forshaddowing in advance a negative bent. Reviewing doesn't consist of flaming everything in sight. It's basically the laziest form of reviewing. And how do you criticize a film on the racist basis angle when it is based on a LoveCraft piece? Has the woman even read Lovecraft? At the same time she bolsters this point under the false assumption that the character I portrayed was a "Mexican". I'm not sure where she pulled that little chesnut from but she probably had to stand up to access the point of origin. I might be inclined to leave my opinions of her reviews on her webpage but it's a pretty lame site and appears to be designed by a basement dwelling troglidyte posing as a webmaster.
But I digress. I actually have some valid, on topic comments to make on this post but it will have to wait for later as I'm short on time now.
When I have a choice between being "right" and being "kind" - I choose "kind". This is my philosophy. When I encounter really poorly made films on a forum, I simply do not respond at all. If I think there is something educational I can pass along - I will pass it along, but that's all. I've joined these forums to enjoy myself and be entertained - not to be a critic. First of all I wouldn't know how and secondly, it is not in my nature. (I don't do Jury Duty for the same reason) so I'll let the rest of y'all do that while I continue to have fun and frolic about without a care in the world! LOL - 5 Stars! Great Blog Topic Biggs! *Woot*
ReplyDelete